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Liberal
Conservative
Local politicians find yet another item to ban
Posted by:
JasonEH
05-Sep-2008 12:40
Source:
![[A]](/images/thumbnails/libertyalert.blogspot.com.ico?1216004674 "source avatar")
libertyalert.blogspot.com
Type:
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Category:
Environment
libertyalert.blogspot.com
Type:
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Category:
Environment
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56 Comments
Been in effect in SF for some time. No inconvenience. Less trash. Like it.
That's fine that you like it, but my point is that everyone would like it. It restricts freedom. I don't want my freedom restricted, in ANY way. Besides, I reuse these bags at home. I just packed my lunch in one today.
Had a typo in my previous comment.
That's fine that you like it, but my point is that not everyone would like it. It restricts freedom. I don't want my freedom restricted, in ANY way. Besides, I reuse these bags at home. I just packed my lunch in one today.
OK, so we should have the freedom to have our own ounce of plutonium to play with. In the city you have to have actually have some COLLECTIVE/COOPERATIVE laws that may not apply in the middle of nowhere. Sorry, there are decibel laws and all sorts of restrictions on "freedom" that are needed when you have a lot of people living in close quarters.
Two points:
As far as the issue of plastic bags in general is concerned, I invite you to look at the North Pacific Gyre.
I thought of such an analogy. However, plastic bags are not banned. I can go to the store and buy a thousand of them if I want. The only thing that's banned is merchants offering them in their stores. That's what's asenine (sp?). You point out that there is a difference between toxic waste and a plastic bag, and that's it. There IS a difference, and that difference makes all the difference. It can't be ignored.
Besides -- This is not really about plastic bags. It's about the erosion of our freedoms. Yes, I agree plastic bags are not a big deal, but it's just one more step.
Sort of like my freedom being eroded when Sarah Palin bans "liberal" books from libraries?
Not exactly, Jason.
There are some things we cannot do in certain instances. One of the classic examples is "falsely yelling fire in a crowded theater".
Is that an erosion of our First Amendment rights? No, not at all. It's an acknowledgement that actions have consequences.
This plastic bag issue is similar, in that there is a growing realization that plastic bags contribute to a serious pollution problem. One of the ways to address the problem is to reduce their use, which is the point of bans that have been instituted, not just in cities in the US, but elsewhere as well.
We don't have the right to yell fire in a crowded theater. Neither do we have the right to pollute.
Victor:
You're fighting a losing battle and you're on the wrong side. Best thing to do at this point, ala Al Gore is declare victory and quit.
Marlowe, are you contending that we actually do have the right to falsely yell fire in a crowded theater?
Or that we have a right to pollute?
Or that our actions don't have consequences?
Victor: Private Msg. function won't work. I'll try later.
Let's get a hold of ourselves here. After all we're talking about plastic bags here not some coal smoke belching electric plant in Belaruss. This is a reductio absurdum argument. If we keep going in this direction before long it will be illegal to FART.
We have to have some perspective on this stuff. Coal smoke belching plant in Belaruss= Fix or close Plastic bag= bury it in a big landfill in the NM desert end of story. Yes, end of story.
Actually, that's not what happens. They go flying every where and gumming up electric facilities and sewer drains. There are clear negative exernalities to them.
m, beware negative exernatities. Heard they can be quite nasty.
Yup, I'm now able to edit a post using the new text editor. Thanks Skewz!
I think you're overstating things a bit, Marlowe.
If the original premise of the article is that "a ban on plastic bags is an example of the nanny state interfering with our freedoms", then I am happy to offer the counter-arguments I have in this thread.
Remember: I agree with you on the "nanny state" - it should be avoided. (#20 below)
I disagree with you that plastic bags are not an environmental problem. Look at the example of the North Pacific Gyre: "A "plastic soup" of waste floating in the Pacific Ocean (that) is growing at an alarming rate and now covers an area twice the size of the continental United States, scientists have said."
Or China's "white pollution"
Or any of the images available for the Google search on "plastic bag pollution".
Am I equating the effects of plastic bag pollution with that of a smoke-belching chimney stack? No.
Am I arguing a reductio ad absurdum by saying "before long, it will be illegal to fart"? No: that's your claim, not mine.
Which makes more sense to you: creating mountains of landfill, or minimizing the waste stream in the first place?
"I think you're overstating things a bit, Marlowe."--VICTOR
Victor:
I would indeed be overstating things if all I was talking about were plastic bags. But indeed I MOST CERTAINLY AM NOT. Let's back up from this argument a bit so we can see the beginning since we have actually started at the end of the story not the beginning.
WHERE I ASK DID THIS BAG COME FROM? Well of course it came from a store of some type. The shopkeeper GAVE it to a customer so he can more easily carry his purchases. The shop keeper recognized his customers need for the bag and since he was giving the bag away he chose the one that would do the job effectively at the lowest cost.
NOW IF THE GOVERNMENT STEPS IN AND ROBS THE SHOPKEEPER OF HIS RIGHT TO RUN HIS BUSINESS AS HE SEES FIT WHAT HAS HAPPENED TO THE SHOPKEEPER.
He has in point of fact lost the ability to run his business as he sees fit.
Now I understand that what happens to the bag after that can also become a problem. To that I say do we not have littering laws. Do we not have very sophisticate garbage disposal plants. There is one right in the middle of Downtown Minneapolis across the street from the Twins new stadium. You would never know what it was unless someone told you. So if littering laws are enforced and garbage is processed efficiently there is no need to outlaw plastic (or any kind of bag for that matter)bags.
It is precisely these types of laws that take the control of business out of the hands of the businessowner and puts it in the hands of government, under the guise of environmentalism, that is the very embodiment of NANNY STATE GOVERNMENT.
Exactly. Enforce the laws we already have. Punish the litters for littering, rather than the VAST majority of plasic bag users that dispose of them properly. Not to mention the number of people that RECYCLE these bags. I use them for my small garbages in my bathrooms.
Also, since everyone is so worried about the trash in the Pacific, I guess we ban BOTTLED WATER next?
Good point. Today it's plastic bags tomorrow plastic bottles.
Using your analogy of loud music, the solution to music violations would be to ban radios/stereos.
How did Sarah Palin get brought into this? Well, since you brought her in, tell me the title of the books she wanted to ban. Right. You can't. Therefore, that makes it rumor. But of course, you fall for it hook line and sinker. Need to act like a grown up here. This is big boy/girl politics.
Not so fast. It's widely publicized in the meeting minutes of the town. Nothing ended up getting banned, but she did explore the subject which is disturbing in itself. Sorry, you guys want to restrict rights that you don't agree with with the best of them. Sorry the facts get in the way.
Hold on. Don't lump me in with the "you guys" comment. I am totally against banning ANYTHING, ESPECIALLY books. You have no facts. You still can't tell me the titles of the books. Until I know the titles, I can't comment. But don't assume that I agree with everything some other person does.
Hey, by the way, on a lighter note, I appreciate the comments. Don't forget to skew my article, and also, check out other stuff on my blog. I'm sure we won't often agree, but I appreciate your viewpoint and the debate.
Jay -- libertyalert.blogspot.com
JasonEH:
The fact of the matter is that liberals ban books all the time. Did we not just hear of a janitor losing his job (he was reinstated) at a University of all things because he was reading a book deemed to be derogatory towards ISLAM.
Worst of all my local paper has banned the comic strip Mallard Fillmore. Those curs on the left.
Books and ideas are so important. No book (with the exception of profainty in the hands of children) should be banned. It's improtant to explore ideas, ESPECIALLY ones contrary to your own.
You're right. The only reason I bothered to mention it is because the Left always assumes that the right are the only ones who ban books. Truth be known both sides do it.
Victor -- That's just the thing. The SCIENTIFIC data does not back up your point. Read the MSNBC article. It's not clear cut that plastic is any better or worse than other bags. Use your head and not your "feelings".
When Ireland and South Africa are taxing plastic bags, and when Mumbai and China are banning them, it may be reasonable to conclude that plastic bags actually are an environmental problem. (source)
Further information about the impact of plastic shopping bags.
And a concluding quote from the MSNBC article:
"For both types of bags, the environmentalist mantra is the same — reuse and recycle. But the best choice, they say, is cloth or canvas, and BYOB — bring your own bags."
VICTOR:
Here's the problem. Creeping Nanny Statism will hurt you long before any blasted plastic bag from Wally World.
Hello Marlowe,
The "nanny state" is a place where your political leadership thinks they know what's best for you - whether they do or not. I agree that a state like that is something to avoid.
But what would you call it when policy decisions, like this example, are based on sound science and voted on by your representatives? I'd call that representative democracy and good government.
That is based on exactly the same "voodoo" science that "second hand" smoke and Anthropogenic global warming are based on.
Are you unable to see how all these things: some trivial, some downright scratch your head crazy, ALL OF COURSE BASED ON THE LATEST SCIENCE FROM SWEDEN OR BRUGE are being used to curtail your freedoms.
Fine maybe Victor doesn't smoke, maybe he doesn't do this or that but eventually they are coming looking for you for your "polluting" thoughts or some other ism,or pollution etc.
Victor: Private mail not working
m, just a thought, try contacting Victor through is blog. Sorry don't recall the URL, but a google search of his name should turn it up.
Marlowe: use my GMail address: victor.abrahamsen@gmail.com
Hey, I was just re-reading my comments. I did not mean to get so fired up. I'm going to try to keep it more civil from here on out. Let's see if I can do it. Keep
Plus, give me some props for getting a top story on Skewz without mentioning Barak Obama or Sarah Palin!
Jason-
The Pacific Gyre is a huge externality resulting from plastic bags.
Thanks.